Just because Aidan MOFFAT and Malcolm MIDDLETON decided to tour their legendary 25 year-old album Philophobia doesn’t mean that ARAB STRAP is a band living in the past. The Scottish duo is actually looking ahead as it will release its eighth album, I’m totally fine with it - don’t give a fuck anymore on May 10. This interview - made in the dressing room of L'Epicerie Moderne in Feyzin, a few hours before the last leg of their European tour - therefore walks a thin line between the present and the past.
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I N T E R V I E W //// I N T E R V I E W //// I N T E R V I E W
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"A way to say goodbye to the old ARAB STRAP as well"
Well, before we start I'd like to apologize because we already did an interview in August last year for which I was way too drunk and then I ended up losing said interview in a hard drive crash so it never got published.
Malcolm MIDDLETON : Was that at the festival in Switzerland ?
Yes it was.
Aidan MOFFAT : I thought we'd already seen you, you looked familiar.
Unfortunately not for good reasons, I guess. I promise I will be more well-behaved this time !
AM : [laugh] Nah, that's ok, festivals are usually like that.
So, you're here to play Philophobia, which is a bit surprising considering the opening line of your last album As days get dark (“I don't give a fuck about the past”).
AM : [laugh] Yeah ! I'm very fond of Philophobia, I think that's the album that started to make sense for us. Its 25th birthday was this year and it was... I just couldn't resist. But also it's a way to say goodbye to the old ARAB STRAP as well. There's a lot of these songs we'll never play again. I think that some of that is a warm handshake to say goodbye to the past because we have a new album coming out next year, which should be announced in January. I think we're ready to move now, aren't we ?
MM : Yes. It's also as well that we didn't do that much touring this year. The plan was to do one or two Philophobia shows and people kept coming back saying they wanted more, so that was nice. The crowds have been great, they're enjoying the record but also us being on stage as a duo, without a full band. People enjoy this type of setting that is intimate, the record is also intimate. The band is great to play live but it's also nice to sit back.
So why did you decide to tour as a duo this time ?
AM : It just seemed like the best way to do it I think.
MM : That's how we made the record.
AM : Yes, the record was mostly just the two of us. The people who used to play and tour the record we don't work with anymore, we have a completely new band. And also if we had done it with the full band it would have been a much bigger production and we wanted it to have a more low-key aspect.
Does Brexit have anything to do with this decision ?
AM : Not especially, no no. I mean we did a tour of France last year with the full band. It was more a creative decision for us to keep it a quiet celebration. As you said you were surprised to hear about this tour, that was a bit what we wanted, we didn't want it to be that big of a deal. Like, even the shows in Scotland are in pretty small venues compared to what we would normally play. We wanted it to keep it an intimate and quiet thing. And it seemed like the most natural way to do it. And also it's a very sparse record, there's not a lot on it to begin with. We're not really missing that much [laughs]. Once we've got a drum machine and some backing on the bass and the organ, you're not really missing much more.
You said it's a way to say farewell to the old ARAB STRAP, does it mean that those are the types of songs you couldn't write anymore ?
AM : Oh, definitely. I don't write songs like that anymore and I don't intend to. It's a very young me that wrote those songs. You know I'm very proud of the last album we made, I think it may be the best one we've done so far, even though I think the new one's even better. If I didn't think that then we wouldn't release it [laughs]. There would be no point in making a record that is not at least as good as the last one. You know, “What's the fucking point ?”. I think we were very surprised seeing so many new faces, younger faces coming to our shows because of the new stuff. But there's also younger people coming to see Philophobia, people who are younger than Philophobia (laughs) which is great and mental. So, yes, I don't have the desire or the will or the lifestyle to write those songs anymore.
Another thing I found surprising was that review of the show you played in Stockholm that said the kids at the show were more excited by your encore where you played songs from As days get dark, as opposed to the Philophobia set.
AM : Yeah, yeah, we were quite conscious of that too. Once the old songs are out of the way we do a couple of songs from As days get dark.
MM : It's almost like it's a different band between Philophobia and As days get dark. It's nice that the younger kids can like the last album as it may lead them to our older stuff. It's not as musically accomplished as what we do now.
Are there things on the record that you find a bit cringey as you have to play it 25 years later ?
AM : All of it feels a bit cringey to me ! No, no, the thing is I don't cringe. I have a very high tolerance for embarrassment, which is why I wrote these songs in the first place. I think that's why people enjoy them too because very few people are so open about being an arsehole [laughs] than I was back then so I suppose it makes them feel good about themselves.
As you said the record was quite spare but where there parts that were difficult for you to remember how to play ?
MM : I think through the years we've always played a few of those songs. There are some we hadn't played for a very long time.
There are songs that you play on bass during this tour ?
MM : Yes, just one.
I guess that's something new for you ?
MM : Yes, I haven't played bass live in years so that's nice. It's nice and relaxed because a lot of it is very repetitive so it takes a lot of discipline not to add anything extra.
AM : The lyrics as well, they're all imprinted, like sometimes when we're doing a song that we wrote two years ago I can't remember it, but all the old songs, I know them. They're just there, I don't know... I'm just able to access them so it's been pretty easy.
Speaking about the lyrics, the opening line (“It was the biggest cock you’d ever seen / But you had no idea where that cock had been”) must be quoted in about 90% of the reviews written about ARAB STRAP, so how do you feel about the band being “summarized” like this?
AM : It's funny, I mean I think it's a good way to open an album. It certainly draws you in to the tone of the album yes but you'd be surprised at how many people still think I'm singing that about my own penis in that song.
MM : You're not ? [laughs] I think what I was not getting in that song was “Johnnies come in packs of three” then maybe they got two packets.
AM : I remember they did it, yes, that's true. Also as well these days they come in packs of two...
MM : Or ten. All shapes and sizes... and tastes as well.
AM : It was relevant at the time.
More generally speaking, the lyrics being very raw, was it ever some kind of obstacle to the band getting airplay on the radio ?
AM : You'd be surprised at how much we were played on the radio, we did quite well.
MM : But they never played the songs with swear words, although John PEEL played a song from our first album with the word “cunt” in it at five in the afternoon on a Saturday but I don't think he realized.
AM : No he didn't, he didn't know this.
Was he in trouble after that ?
AM : No, no, because of my accent as well...
MM : “Can't”
AM : Yeah it could be anything. But I mean even know, with the album we have coming out next year we've had to do a couple of radio friendly versions because there's a lot of swearing on the record, but there's no sexual swearing. They have strange rules sometimes, as long as it's not sexual you can get away with it. It's not quite as raw but there are some rude words.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it felt a bit more toned down on As days get dark.
AM : Hum, maybe. I mean it wasn't a deliberate thing but the opening line does contain the word “fuck” [laughs]. I mean it wasn't a conscious decision, I don't think about these things, if something needs swearing then there will be swearing.
MM : When it rhymes, it rhymes.
AM : There's only so many things that rhyme with fuck I think I've done them all by now.
Duck, truck...
AM : Cuck ? I've not done cuck !
Speaking of As days get dark, would you consider Tale of the urban fox as your first political song ? I mean it feels like it has a really different tone than your other songs.
AM : Yeah, well I don't know, I guess it depends on how you'd interpret “political” but it's certainly the most overtly political. It has a very thinly disguised metaphor I suppose but I think the new record has more of that sort of stuff on it, more things around the world around me as I write more about that than I write about myself. A lot of the songs on the next album are in that sort of vein. They're not specifically about my own experience but the world around me.
Were there songs when you were recording the new album that you felt sounded too much like the old ARAB STRAP or you don't think about that too much ?
MM : It was the case with the last album, it had stuff that didn't make it past the demo stage. But it's not the case with the new one, it's more electronic and has more drum machines and it's more intense.
AM : Well, electronic... It's more upbeat musically not necessarily lyrically [laughs] but it's quite upbeat yeah. We did As days get dark with two songs that we thought were too close to the old ARAB STRAP... What's it called again ?
MM : Aphelion
AM : Aphelion and Flutter, yes. And then we released it as a 7inch single and I think that's one of the best records we've made.
So you don't regret not including them on the record ?
MM : No, they sounded too much like old songs.
AM : We wanted to move on.
There's also a lot of folk-sounding songs on the album like The urban fox or Another clockwork day or even Sleeper for example, and I was wondering whether that came from your experiences as solo artists after the band split up ?
MM : Possibly but I think we both listen to, not folk, but acoustic guitar music and stuff.
AM : I mean everything has been influenced by what we've done since ARAB STRAP stopped in 2006. We will never try to go back to that period and start where we left off because that would have been a bit silly. When we started making records we were then always going to put out some more with the knowledge and experience gained in between so I suppose...
MM : We have an obtuseness that stops any plans of success [laughs].
"We don't have merch in Europe because of fucking Brexit"
Not only in terms of sales but also regarding its critical reception, what would you consider as your most successful album ?
MM : It depends but Philophobia is the one where people heard of us but in terms of sales Red thread was the biggest selling. Also As days get dark I think but I'm not sure exactly how much copies we sold. For a come back album it was nice not to see things like “Oh these old fucks have made yet another album” [laughs]. I think we dodged a bullet there and we did ok. That's because we didn't have to release it, we did it because we wanted to.
AM : I don't have the evidence for this, I'm just speaking from remembered experience but I'm pretty sure As days get dark is the best reviewed album we've ever made. Philophobia and The red thread did ok but I think As days get dark is above that.
MM : So that probably means that with the next one we're due a hammering [laughs].
AM : Yes, with the next one we're going to get fucking destroyed.
So would you say it was the same for the album as for the live shows as you mentioned earlier about bringing in new audiences ?
AM : Yes, definitely. As we were saying lots of new fans, especially younger ones, even when we were doing the tour of England for Philophobia, they enjoyed hearing the record but when we did the songs from As days get dark they seemed to respond more. And we'd meet them afterwards because we don't have merch in Europe because of fucking Brexit but we'd have some in England so we were meeting the people after the shows and there were lots of people who were as I said before younger than Philophobia who were just really happy to see us. So aye, it's been good and I hope it continues. There's an irony to it because I was not expecting to be making new fans at this point in life I have to say.
You mentioned your Scottish accent, do you think it matters whether people understand what you're singing about ?
MM : They haven't got a fucking clue. Nah, I think that words come across and the tone comes across with the music in the background. But I think people come see us with some level of English.
Regarding Philophobia I guess the artwork also helps ?
AM : Yeah yeah.
Where did the idea come from ?
AM : For Philophobia ?
MM : Adam & Eve [laughs]
AM : Well, as you were saying the album is very raw and I wanted to include some very open, raw nudity but I didn't want to use pictures because that is crude. So we got an artist to do some paintings of me and my girlfriend of the time who is in about 50% of the songs on the record. My relationship with her sort of runs through the record and it ends with us coming together and becoming a couple and stuff like that... It didn't end well, the album predicted it perfectly as a fucking disaster. But yes, I wanted to do something that was sort of exposed I suppose. You know, it's fun there was someone on Twitter recently who obviously didn't know me and he just googled ARAB STRAP and saw the cover and he said something like, you know, “Stop exploiting women on your record covers” and I thought “You're gonna get a fucking fright when you turn that round” [laughs]. But that was always the point, I think I wanted to surprise people. I didn't... nobody wanted me on the front of the record, that would've been horrible.
So who was the artist who did those paintings ?
AM : Marianne GREATED is her name, I don't know where she is or what she does now.
Is she Scottish ?
AM : Yes, I think or she might have been Dutch. I can't remember if she was Dutch and lived and grew up in Scotland or if she was Dutch and moved to Scotland. She sure had a Scottish accent so she had definitely been there for quite a while but I haven't spoken to her in a very long time.
Along with the cover art I think there was a lot of attention paid to the way the lyrics were presented. Would you go as far as saying that these were the elements of a concept album ?
AM : A concept album is a bit too SPINAL TAP. It's not a concept album in the sense that there's not a beginning and an end to a story but there is I suppose a theme that ties it all together but that only becomes apparent when you're near the end. With the new record we've got coming out next year I didn't really realize what was connecting the songs until we were done and it suddenly dawned on me what's going on with all these things and what I had been thinking about and stuff, so yeah that becomes apparent after a while but it's not a concept album. Unless the concept is I'm shite at romance.
Did the fact that you both became fathers have play a part in your songs getting less sexual ?
MM : It's too late for that.
AM : I mean you can't hide anything from young people now so... No, the change in the music for me is just because of lived experience and getting older. I don't think children... I mean, it's something I write about, children here and there, but I'm not scared to write about something gritty or personal because of that.
"That was sort of my second summer of love !"
Did you get to read the autobiography by MOGWAI's Stuart BRAITWATHE, Spaceships over Glasgow ?
AM : No, I haven't read it yet, no.
I think it's quite fun to read as it has a lot of live shows he attended reviewed, mixed with how he works with MOGWAI. There's a lot of drugs and alcohol mentioned as well and basically he says that he was doing so many of it, but it was nothing compared to you guys. Can you confirm that ?
MM : I don't think that it's true. I always thought that when we started ARAB STRAP we were coming out of our mental phase. Or there might have been two years in the band when we were stupid and drunk all the time. Because we were in a band we'd get free alcohol at gigs but we were getting shit reviews that said we couldn't play. So round after 1998 when Philophobia was released we started caring and giving a fuck about it and trying to get better. So then the rule was pretty much we don't drink during the day nor at soundcheck. Maybe one or two beers before we'd get on but Aidan was allowed to drink as much as he wanted (laughs). I remember at that point MOGWAI were fucking going at it all the time. They were doing stuff that we'd never do before a gig. Or during a gig.
AM : When was that because we'd only toured with MOGWAI at that point ?
MM : 1997... They were partying hard all the time while we were saving it for the weekends.
AM : It's interesting, as Malcolm says I think we were much wilder before we started the band. That is the time I remember as being fucking brilliant. Although I did go through a disco phase as well and I had a sort of relapse [laughs]. It was around the time we made Monday at the hug and pint. That was my second disco phase which was brilliant fun.
MM : It's a discrete way to mean ecstasy [laughs].
AM : That was sort of my second summer of love !
I think it was around the time that you made Philophobia that you also did The lioness with SONGS:OHIA ?
AM : Well...
MM : I didn't, but...
I thought the record all the members of ARAB STRAP...
MM : No it was just Aidan and David (GOW) I think.
AM : No, Gary came as well but he didn't really play anything. Well, what happened was my mom and dad were selling their house and the garage was sitting empty so we went there and recorded some songs on a 4 track recorder then promptly lost those. I think we found them again recently, I think they're on that boxset that came out recenly. Then, Jason (MOLINA) was in Glasgow for a while so we booked the studio that we normally used so I went through with him and Dave from ARAB STRAP who played some drums. I just used that drum machine on Being in love, I just pushed the buttons [laughs]. I did actually play drums on one song but it was fucking appalling so I don't know if anyone's ever heard that.
How did that come about ?
MM : We had toured together before. The first time was in America in 1997.
AM : Well I tried to get to the bottom of this when that boxset came out because I was asked by what's his name from Secretly Canadian ? Well, I always thought we met them in Detroit for the first time but apparently that gig got canceled so I think we didn't play that night... We were doing our first tour of America as headliners and it was little places, it was fucking torture. Eight or ten hours drive a day, playing little rooms and I remember looking at the sheet that the tour manager gave us and I was looking at the bands that were playing with us and I was overjoyed because a band I had actually heard of was playing with us and it was SONGS:OHIA. But I'm not sure how many gigs we did because there was this weird sort of travel thing they did, they got lost somewhere I can't remember. Anyway we brought them to the UK after that and they toured with us. We stayed in Travel lodges and they were sleeping on our floor on sleeping bags.
MM : And later on they played with us again.
AM : They did a European tour yes. I mean we did lots of shows with them.
What about those recording sessions ? Did he give you any kind of blueprint or did he just let you play whatever you felt like playing ?
AM : It was just relaxed, just fucking about making songs. We were fucking about, making songs. It was always something he wanted to do, he was always writing songs some way or another. I mean it was all young kids having a laugh. I don't really think Jason planned things out that much. He just had the notion that he would make a record, then he would make it.
Maybe I wouldn't go as far as saying it has a Glaswegian sound but it sounds really distinct from the rest of the band's discography.
AM : That might just be the studio that we used. It was the same studio that we used, MOGWAI used, The DELGADOS as well.
Did he ask you any advice about the sequencing of the album ?
AM : No, no !
I'm asking because you were speaking of the boxset and there are some songs in there... I just don't understand why on earth they didn't end up on the actual record because they are so good.
AM : Yes, he was always good at throwing good stuff away [laughs] but that's just because he had lots of good stuff. I just kept out of it and in fact I didn't even know it was coming out until he gave me the record so it was all very relaxed and just very casual.
Since you're mentioning throwing things away, what about the new album ? Is there any leftover material ?
AM : I don't think there is.
MM : We've ended up with fifteen songs and the plan was to do a ten track album but there will be twelve on it so there's three that didn't make it. There's a few ones we haven't finished so including those it would be seventeen or eighteen.
AM : I'm not sure what you mean... There's twelve songs on the album. What do you mean there's fifteen, I'm only thinking of fourteen, what's the fifteenth ? There's two that aren't on the album that are coming out as a single afterrwards.
So you're just going to do the same thing you did with the Aphelion single then ?
AM : Yeah but this time these songs didn't fit but not because they sound like old ARAB STRAP, it just didn't really suit the album so they're going to be their wee thing on their own. So everything we've mixed is getting released.
"It's not rock !
It may be noisy but it doesn't sound like QUEEN"
Is it easy for you sequencing albums or do you have to fight because you're not seeing eye to eye ?
MM : We didn't fight this time as much as we did for the last album. We almost split up again making it.
What was that all about ?
MM : Last time ?
Yes.
MM : It's not worth getting there or we'll start fighting again.
AM : That was just about a sequence and it doesn't really matter because as I said that's the best reviewed album we've made so I think it all worked out well. But yes, that new one was much easier to make, I was very relaxed about it.
How would you describe this new record ?
AM : The new album ? “Superbe” ! Life affirming.
MM : Bombastic !
AM : [laughs] Bombastic, yes !
MM : I take that back, strike it out from the recording. The first half is quite intense musically and lyrically.
Is it more of a rock album then ?
MM : Not really...
AM : Well the first song is probably the noisiest thing we've ever done in a very long time.
MM : It's not rock ! It may be noisy but it doesn't sound like QUEEN.
Oh, that's not what I meant at all by rock.
MM : Yeah, ok, right.
AM : I mean the bass line sounds a bit like BIG BLACK so that's quite aggressive.
Will we also have more PINK FLOYD sounding guitars too ?
MM : No, I wasn't allowed.
AM : Those were brought down in the mix.
I'm sorry I'm getting back to this but it means you had to fight to have those guitars on Tears on tour ?
MM : I started a crowdfunding page [laughs]. For that song, yeah, kinda. Aidan can be fickle sometimes and indecisive so when I did the demo, the guitar is the same as it appears on the record. But then in the studio he said “I don't think it should be on it”. I don't know what concession had to happen then, maybe he took a happy pill or something. But I think it's a nice moment on the record.
AM : No I think I just didn't like the new takes you had done. I just wanted you to use what you had already done.
MM : I didn't do new takes.
AM : You did !
MM : I don't think I did.
AM : You did because I sat there watching you fucking noodle.
MM : I think the simplicity of the first takes didn't need me to do them over again.
AM : Well, I still watched you do lots more takes.
MM : Right, so he's recording this...
AM : Oh yeah, right, right...
MM : There's a couple of wee guitar solos on the new record.
"No one ever asked us to go back and remake an album"
Regarding the demos for As days get dark, I can only think of Just enough as the only song being very different from the version that ended on the record. Is it the same for the new album ?
AM : We probably expanded them more than on the last record. Most of the stuff was recorded before we got there. Something we learned over the years is to be more prepared going into the studio but there's still room for experiments. But I would say it's 80% written before we get in the studio.
Will it be released on Rock Action ?
AM : Yes, the best label I've ever worked with ! They leave us alone, they don't talk to us, they don't get involved. They just say “Go and make a record and then we'll put it out”.
Is it because you're old time pals or is it the way they operate with all the bands ?
AM : Well I think they just trust us to do our thing and also because we've known them for so many years and they know we're quite tight with money.
MM : And I think that if we're doing something shit they'll say something.
AM : Yeah I think so but I'm happy to say there's been no negative reactions.
MM : No they've been positive, especially Stuart and Martin.
AM : I mean they don't run the label, there's other people that do it and deal with all the business stuff. They just sit in the back like proper old school music moguls, just sort of approving or agreeing on budgets or something.
Is it different for you guys than when you were on Matador for example ?
AM : Well we were never really on Matador because that was just a licensing deal.
MM : But it was the same with Chemikal Underground and Go! Beat, no one ever asked us to go back and remake an album.
Are there any chances that you would do with another ARAB STRAP album what you're doing with Philophobia ?
AM : I think asking us on the last day of the European leg of the tour is probably not the best idea because the answer is going to be “Fuck no !”.
MM : I think Philophobia is our strongest, more cohesive album. All other albums have fillers or maybe not fillers but songs that didn't quite end up how we wanted them to sound so I think this is the only album we'll ever play live from start to finish. Call me on that next year when we're doing Last romance or something [laughs].
AM : To me this is a goodbye to these things. We've got a last record that we're very happy with, a new one that we're very happy with. Obviously we'll still play older songs but I think we'll be focusing on the newer stuff as we go forward.
I suppose it keeps things more interesting for you guys ?
MM : Yes, with this new album I think it will be our eighth album, so it's almost like a new phase.
AM : I was thinking we shouldn't even release it as ARAB STRAP, it's a name that doesn't really fit us anymore. It's slightly embarrassing for guys nearing their fifties. You know when we were making Philophobia naming the band after a sex toy that contains an erection is perfect ! But know it's just not working anymore [laughs].
"I fucking love Frozen !"
What are the last movies that you saw ?
MM : I watched Openheimer the other day, it was terrible.
You didn't like it ?
MM : No, it's like the A Team but with nuclear bombs. So it's long and it's slow “Ta ta da we're making a bomb” and then after they're like “Oh I didn't mean it”. I was looking forward to watching it though. Sorry for the spoilers [laughs].
AM : I think the last time I went to the cinema was with my children to see The Marvels. It was fucking terrible.
Worse than Frozen and Frozen 2 ?
AM : Oh I'm looking forward to Frozen 3 when that comes out. That'll get mentioned in a song as well. I fucking love Frozen ! There was nothing negative about Frozen in that song, Tears on tour, I really love it.
Yes but I was wondering whether that was tongue in cheek...
AM : No, not at all, I love those films. But The Marvels, that was just terrible.
What about Star Wars ? I suppose your love for it has probably waned a bit ?
AM : Endor is good, that TV series is brilliant but the rest of it, well... There's too much of it now.
MM : Yes, there's nothing special about it anymore. It's the same with superhero movies.
You've never been asked to make soundtracks ?
MM : Once or twice, we've done a couple, low budget. We've done one animated film. That's funny because we got asked to do a soundtrack for a movie so we started doing demos, not as ARAB STRAP but Aidan and Malcolm and we thought they were quite good and then they didn't like it so they gave it to the guy from BRIAN JONESTOWN MASSACRE and he did a very good job with bluesy rock stuff.
Have ARAB STRAP songs been used in movies ?
MM : Yes we've had a few.
AM : We also have the theme tune to a detective show, The turning of our bones. It was broadcasted last year, it's called Karen PIRIE.
MM : It's a Scottish detective show. And there's also a South Korean movie, The vertical ray of the sun that uses Soaps. And of course there's the Guiness advert one.
AM : Ooomph, yes, god...
So that's something you would not do again ?
MM : Well, we already did. I think long gone are the days of bands' integrity. And then again, it depends on what you're advertising. I would never say “never”.
AM : Oh I would probably say “never” [laughs].
MM : Aidan just has integrity, he's old school.
AM : Everybody has their price but I don't expect that the price I would be asking would be the same as the one being offered.
Alright. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap this up ?
MM : You're much nicer when you're sober [laughs].
Interview by Éric F., with the help of Fabrice B.
(May 7, 2024)XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
ARAB STRAP. Philophobia (Chemikal Underground, 1988)
ARAB STRAP. I'm totally fine with it - don't give a fuck anymore
(Rock Action, 10/05/2024)
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Go further...
ARAB STRAP : Bandcamp
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In our radio archives :
Rock à la Casbah #719 (20/01/2021)
Rock à la Casbah #733 (06/05/2021)
Rock à la Casbah #756 - Retro-best of 21, Vol. 1 (22/12/2021)
In our written archives :
Lumière au bout de la nuit,
by Éric F. (22/04/21)
Ce que je retiens de 2021, by bingO
Adieu Philophobia,
this interview in French version (23/04/2024)
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Photography : Fabrice B. & Éric F.
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